After much disscusion with some of my team mates last night we have decided to ditch cipher due to lack o documentation. Cipher is an incredible engine i must say, it looks good and its got netcode and its price is unbeatable. The problem is its just to hard to use, i mean the guy cant even make a short read me about what headers need to be included in your project and just excpects everyone to think this new game wizard is the answer. I as the coder for the team was ify about cipher when we first got it but figured it would grow on me. Then last night basically all i did was argue with my mapper/modler while trying to get a 3d max map imported into temple. This is when i realized that it had been becoming counter productive, not just that i felt the documentaion for the code was lackluster but also none of my artists could figure out how to do anything, it seems when they get the 3ds file converted and and make a bsp the collision code in temple just doesnt work. Anyways i still think cipher is great and hope to use it later in the mean time weve went with irrlicht wich has an awesome community and good tutorials (including a basic skelton project with just headers) it even looks as if the graphics will be better than cipher's in its next release the demo (ex vid http://irrlicht.sourceforge.net/download/irrlicht-0.10.0.avi ) for anyone else thinking about switching you should give this engine a chance. Iv had it for half a day and already have code to load Q3 maps and 3ds maps with bump mapping load some static models in them walk around with collision detection and have an FPS camera with the mouse and keys working. Anyways there is a downfall to this engine no netcode, i was wondering if anyone had tried to use ciphers netcode as standalone code in another engine and how it went.

The irrlich engine lacked serious speed when I evaluated it. It is as much overdesigned c++ code as Ogre3D.

I never used the cipher game wizard though since the engine is very well structured. Our artists had no problem exporting models and skeletons into the engine. So I guess it all comes down to the experience of your team.

Good look with the irrlicht engine though!
Edited 19th April, 2005 00:33

hmm, thats very odd i must say...

out of all the people that have came to cipher and left, it was never because they couldnt get a grasp of how the engine works.

true it seems a little wierd at first, but if you just stay cracking at it for a few months, youll really start to understand cipher inside and out.

and......cipher is better than irrlicht! ;)

just stick with it cowboy.

The choice is always yours, but I don't see the problem with using the 'New Game Wizard'. It gives you a sample UI, set up all the properties for you, a clean client and server code project and other great stuff.

How Cipher is set up, it would be suicide to do it any other way. You will be spending hours making sample files, folders and links so that it will compile and run successfully. I think the New Game Wizard is great and I can just get straight into the coding without worrying about testing the framework or to see if I coded it in right.

Anyway, good luck with Irrlicht graphics engine. If you are building an FPS, you can always choose a more FPS-ready game engines such as the freely available Cube Engine (which comes with a DM game) or cheaply available TGE.

come back to cipher!!!!!!! i also tried the irrlicht engine, and to tell you the truth..... it sucks compared to the cipher engine. Now i'm no programmer but i don't see any reason not to use the "new game wizard". after all even i am able to undersatnd how to get the engien up and running using it and i'm not the programmer in the team. as far as graphic options go, cipgher wins again, it just supports more. i also love the way cipgher also just exports the uv cordinates alongv with the model (the 3d game studio engine didn't :(

I agree with the_cX

"out of all the people that have came to cipher and left, it was never because they couldnt get a grasp of how the engine works.
"

In my opinion i wont leave cipher i'll just try to look at irrlicht and build my own release based on cipher and irrlicht.

Same if irrlicht dont have any new game wizard.

It is based on a lib so i could make my own headers for a game wizard if i'm not wrong.

the first thing that caugh me for irrlicht are the tutorials for dynamic engine that i wasnt able to include with the new game wizard++

Hope that when i'll start my programming course. i'll learn something may be.

I have to point out that Irrlicht is solely a 3d engine, and that's all.
Edited 12th May, 2005 20:51

Cipher surpases irlicht as capabilites, and ease to use.

Rabid: I think you mean only a graphics engine

Dan can you explain more. DOnt want to look mean but this is the first positive thing you explicitely said from cipher....

And i'm interested to know what you mean about capabilities.

Tell me just what make cipher a better engine ;) and irrlicht a less better engine.

darksybesis, if you can't see the difference, your simply having a brain fart. It happens. I looked at the latest, in my opinion irrlicht is getting worst rather than better, completely flaky.

this is not answering my question by the way.

Repeating the same thing everytime do nothing. Thats absolutely like when people ask to dan for screenshots or code.

I would just like to know more about the fact.I'm saying that people who claim torque is better than cipher... I could say true may be...And i'll ask why?
Ok Now i'm asking the same question to you(community)...What make cipher a good engine?(Oh do i need to ask more than a because it is easy to learn or thing like that. These message are useless because it dont say why it is easy to learn and why cipher is well coded.)


jtilo-> For the moment my brain is gonna blow up. I dont have much time. I didnt touch to code for about a month or more. I just did something wrong with my modifyed source of cipher and now it didnt compile.I'll restart from scratch during the summer. I could not put much time on coding until school is end. By the way i can figure where i'll start my work again.I think thats all.

With Cipher I had performace results I never had with any other engine. I know there should be some new updates within Cipher, it will help a lot, but I think stronger effort of all guys in community would help too.
Edited 19th May, 2005 18:30

I'm going to step in here and say a little something about this discussion, and I may be wrong in where I'm comming from, but let me speak anyways.

The opinions here on this forum will be biased towards the Cipher engine, and if you where to goto the Irrlicht Forums and post something there it would be biased towards the Irrlicht Engine. Anyone who is and has been using an engine for any amounts of time will say that their engine is better then said engine for such a reason.

As to the Cipher engine looking better then the Irrlicht engine, this could be so as the Irrlicht engine is being programmed by a sole programmer and unlike the Cipher engine has not, from what I have seen, have full teams of people to make something like the CCCDemo provided by Cipher; most are Irrlicht programs are developed with only one or two people. As for all of Irrlicht's tech-demos, they are showing off meshes that are freely provided and not some models developed primarly for the demo.

When it comes to the speed of the two engine, I have had better speads with Irrlicht then I have had with Cipher. But this doesn't go for everyone out there, as each persons hardware will vary.

I have not had or needed to as of yet look into the Irrlicht source, so I can't really comment on it becoming like Ogre3D in the bloated sence.

These are just my thoughts, and as I have said earlier, you don't have to believe them. Just keep an open mind, and have fun programming no matter what engine you use.

I know what you mean about if you go on irrlicht forum they will say it is better. Yeah thats why i ask here because at irrlicht people could not compare the two engines. By the way i think this discussion is more interesting that the only Irrlicht engine topic. for me the best engine is the one who krieger work. ahah canot remember the full name but it is a fps with a lot of fx and it is just 98ko or less. Ah should i say the graphics are as good as cipher engine on a 98ko file awesome.

@AlexL: I'd hate to disappoint you, but Cipher was made soley by Rik Heywood.

The demos made with the cipher engine I think were done with a sole programmer (Rik Heywood) and probably an artist (I would assume Karl Wickens).

I know that the split-screen demo was made by rik and karl in a matter of weeks.

dakz0rz:
Yes I am aware that Cipher was developed soley by Rik Heywood, what I had stated in the above post did not come out across how I had wished it to. I was refering to the demos of said engines and the media that was used within them, and what I have seen of the development teams using the engines. I must apologize for the confusion on this matter.

ok... let me give it another go...

'from what I have seen, have full teams of people to make something like the CCCDemo provided by Cipher; most are Irrlicht programs are developed with only one or two people.'

CCC was done by Synaptic Soup. Guess how many coders and artists there were there...
http://www.synapticsoup.com/corp-people.htm

'As for all of Irrlicht's tech-demos, they are showing off meshes that are freely provided and not some models developed primarly for the demo.'

I don't know what you are getting at here but I think the CCC demo was made, to make a game.

The temple demo was made to show you it was possible to make a first person game and to show off its rendering capabilities such as lighting, hi-res models, shaders, particle effects, etc...

Is there another way to test a game engine's graphical capabilities other than throwing high-quality crap onto a screen and showing a good fps?

yep, CCC was done by me on programming and Karl on art. Anyone that has looked at the code will see that there isn't much code there - it wasn't a very complicated project to do in Cipher.

After we did CCC we made another racing game (there are screenshots of it on this site) that was based underwater and was split screen. That was done in 2 weeks flat, from getting off the phone to the publisher to handing it over. Again, that was just me and Karl to do everything, including the audio.

Cipher was really made to make it quick to throw some stuff together. The learning curve can be a bit steep in places, but when you reach "Cipher Nirvana" you can do a lot very quickly.

I don't really know anything about the other engine being discussed, so my vote goes for Cipher :-)
Edited 18th May, 2005 17:20

"I don't really know anything about the other engine being discussed, so my vote goes for Cipher :-)"
lol @ Rik.

A parallel thread about this is taking place @ IrrLicht forums:

http://irrlicht.sourceforge.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=6805
Edited 19th May, 2005 00:58

yes funny i should write something there mouaha
Edited 18th May, 2005 22:05

O no! they have a thread and they're talking about us. mohaps is also posting comments from a 'license only' cipher forum!

@dark: i wouldn't worry about it.

k

i appologize about posting stuff from a license only forum (if i did that) I just posted the link and did not check if it was to licensee only forum..... i shall delete the stuff if rik asks me to... or if i unknowingly violated EULA of cipher... It was not as if i was revealing any trade secrets any hoo ...

and the quote was taken from the Open forums... from the thread titled "irrlicht" btw...
Edited 19th May, 2005 21:49

"Cipher was really made to make it quick to throw some stuff together. The learning curve can be a bit steep in places, but when you reach "Cipher Nirvana" you can do a lot very quickly."

Yeah Man! But many post would indicate the "Cipher Nirvana" is not easy to reach, but it looks more to me like people worry more about what an engine "can't do" than what it "can".. . which is really to bad. Cipher's features and it's tools are way ahead of most, if you don't know it after a short while, you are missing something very important, go fish elsewhere.

I picture 2 guys, with one saying, lets give the public something real good in a 3D engine, for a low price... the other guy says.. Why? no one will know what they got.. or how to use it, it's a waste.. who's the winner?

rikh, knows what the engine is capable of, and all the things that people seem to miss. Excuse me rikh, if I assume.

I probably sound like I'm pro Cipher.. I am!, I've spent lot's of time with the competition, and there are some other nice engines out there, but the only ones that compare with Cipher are the biggies.

Anyone know any tricks? That's what it's all about.

I agree with JTilo, whats cool about cipher are its features and most engines that even compare to the features cipher has are ones that cost 2x (sometimes a lot more) more than cipher. Plus since cipher is a comercial engine, it has excellent documentation, which is something that is really hard to find in almost all open source engines.
Edited 20th May, 2005 16:25